Jessica McGovern: Finding Purpose Through Photography and Animals
In this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast, Angela Nicholson talks with award-winning dog photographer Jessica McGovern. Known for her evocative pet portraits and her photography education platform, That Tog Spot, Jessica opens up about her journey into photography, sharing how it became both her creative outlet and emotional anchor.
From Troubled Teen to Photography Pro
Jessica’s photography journey began at age 14 when she received her first DSLR as a Christmas gift. Growing up feeling isolated and struggling with her emotions, she found comfort in animals and the creative process of photographing them. She spent hours training her Labrador, Tess, to model for her, blending her passion for animals with a developing love for photography.
Over time, her skills evolved through online forums, photography challenges, and self-driven learning. By age 16, Jessica launched her first photography business, applying lessons learned from her father’s entrepreneurial example.
Listen to another episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast
Navigating Life's Highs and Lows Through the Lens
Jessica’s journey has been far from linear. Personal losses, including a life-changing miscarriage, deepened her emotional connection to photography. Picking up her camera during those dark moments became a form of therapy, helping her rediscover purpose and resilience.
Success followed with numerous international photography awards, including Pet Photographer of the Year and Overall Photographer of the Year. Yet, Jessica candidly discusses the mental toll of chasing accolades and battling online criticism. She reflects on how earning qualifications and industry recognition helped shield her from negativity while reinforcing her credibility.
Teaching and Building Community
Jessica’s passion for sharing knowledge led to the creation of That Tog Spot, a multifaceted photography education platform offering online courses, workshops, and even a biannual print magazine. The platform has grown into a supportive, international community, fuelled by Jessica’s drive to give back.
Insights and Lessons from the Field
Throughout the podcast, Jessica shares practical tips, such as using breed-specific tricks to photograph dogs and preparing for challenging shoots. Her honesty about the complexities of pet photography—whether it’s working with difficult dogs or managing remote shoots with language barriers—offers invaluable insight.
Embracing Individuality
Jessica also touches on embracing her unique way of seeing the world. Initially struggling with feeling different, she now recognises how her distinctive perspective fuels her creativity and business success.
This inspiring conversation is packed with personal anecdotes, hard-won lessons, and expert advice, making it a must-listen for anyone passionate about photography or looking for encouragement in their creative journey.
Listen now to hear Jessica’s story of resilience, creativity, and the transformative power of photography.
Connect with Jessica
Website
That Tog Spot
Facebook
Instagram
Sony
This podcast is supported by Sony, maker of class-leading camera equipment and cutting-edge technologies – like the Global Shutter in the Alpha 9 III which won the SheClicks 2024 Award for Innovation.
Episode Transcript
Jessica McGovern
I think competitions can be very, very dangerous for people who are struggling with the self esteem and self confidence. I think that it's not actually probably a good thing to do in general, I've been there, it's incredibly difficult to keep a check what your brain is telling you when the results come in, if they don't go your way, in whatever way, shape or form, it is actually quite damaging, and that's where I think qualifications and mentoring from the organizations is really useful.
Angela Nicholson
Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now, This episode is with Jessica McGovern, who is best known for her award winning dog photography. Born in Yorkshire. Jessica has numerous accolades for her photography, and she teaches photographers in person and online through her tuition platform, That Tog Spot.
Hi Jess, thank you so much for joining today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.
Jessica McGovern
Hello. I'm so excited to be here.
Angela Nicholson
Oh, that's great. That's really nice to know. So can we start right at the beginning? And you tell me what first triggered you to start getting involved with photography, you know, just as a hobby, or did you go straight to a profession?
Jessica McGovern
Okay, so we've got to rewind the clock a little bit to when I was 14. So that was my first experience. Now I'm do I am I classed as middle aged?
Angela Nicholson
Definitely not.
Jessica McGovern
I don't know now. So when I started, when I was 14, digital cameras existed, so I never did film like I've never done it in my entire life, which I feel I missed out on that. But so I came in with an entry level DSLR. That was my sort of first camera, first readily available from Jessops, I think. And I was bought as a Christmas present. I was a troubled child. Probably would be the easiest and simplest description of me, I was incredibly angry, didn't have a great deal of control over my emotions, was very lost, and didn't fit in anywhere. Was always a bit odd. I sort of was a bit of a social but if I didn't really have many actually real, true, close friends, and that's still probably true today, I preferred spending my time with animals. We lived in the middle of nowhere on a kind of small holding, would be the easiest way of describing it at that point, and I spent all of my time outside of school with horses or dogs. That was it. So we had a few horses at home, and we had a Labrador called Tess, and I started training dogs, then training Tess to be a model for what I was then getting involved in, which was photography, and the thing that photography did for me, and the same with any of the kind of hobbies that I've that I've tried is I have to use my hands, there's a physical aspect to it, and then I also have to use my brain. So I can't get along with anything that doesn't involve both. Otherwise, my brain kind of runs off with itself, and we end up in a bit of a dangerous situation. So working with animals is the same. You have to have full console concentration, mentally and physically, of your body language and positioning. So horses, dogs and photography all sort of went together. So I was photographing the only things that were there, which were animals, because they had no mode of transport. And that's what I just practiced with. And because I was training the animals as well both of the species, it was sort of a natural progression that they would be my muse and my focus. And then when it was too dark to shoot on a night time, I would spend the majority of my time if I was indoors, in my bedroom with the door closed, so I kept out of the way of the situation in the house as well. And so for that, I had a laptop, and because laptops existed as well, yeah. So I think they were fairly new, though, because before we lived in that house, I've moved around a lot. I think that would have been probably my 18th or 19th house that I'd lived in, and that was the first one that we had, like portable computers so I could hide in my room, which was great. And so to do the inside stuff, I spent a lot of time on online photography forums and micro stock forums as well, because I found those photographers really helpful. And then I also was working out Photoshop Elements, perhaps not a legally downloaded copy of that, and also watching some stuff, I think, on Creative Live. But I can't remember if that was exactly at that point or not. So I was learning as much as I could from people on the internet. Who gave their time for free, which was why I started the YouTube channel that I did, yeah, afterwards. So it was a bit of like, well, that's where I started. And I needed that. Mentally, I needed that. And socially, I needed that as well. So it was a good kind of area that I was like, Oh well, I can give back on on that as well. So it was sort of a sad start, I guess. But I think it's interesting to look at what I do now, and it's like, it's actually kind of the same. I just hide with animals, so I've not really changed very much.
Angela Nicholson
The animals and the photography helped you find your place in the world, would you say?
Jessica McGovern
Yeah, definitely. I found that I was good at it. I'm not. It's an odd thing. I'm very, very good at anything that I give 100% to because I'm kind of relentless. I have to know everything about the thing, all of the back, why? Why? I'm a why child. So those annoying children that always ask when you say something, why? And then you answer that, and then why? And that's me and my brother. To be honest, we're quite similar, so we want to know the inner workings of it. Why does it work? How does it work, and if we need to do something, well, why? Why do we have to do that? Why should we do this? And so the anything that I've kind of focused on, I tend to get really good at, and then often get bored and move on to something else that's that's generally kind of the way it goes. But photography is something that I kind of keep coming back to. Often when I'm going through a bad time, I'll come back. So there was a period where in the middle. So since 2017 2018 I wasn't doing photography. I'd sold all of my photography equipment. It was a big disaster. My entire life went down the pan. Moved back in with my parents, just, you know, disaster. I met Dan, and not that long afterwards, became pregnant, and then I miscarried, and it was after miscarrying that I just was completely lost. Like just a lot of women go through the same thing. So I'm sure that we're all kind of feeling that sense of, just for me, I felt like I'd failed as well, in that like it was like a failure, part of it and shame and just the general grief involved in it, and I reached straight away for a camera, and I thought that was really telling, that in the moments of a real, real disaster, that I gravitated immediately towards picking back up a camera and working with animals, and so that's something that I think I'll always try and keep in my life now, because it seems like it's an important emotional tool for me as well. Yeah, I don't know if answered your question that I sort of circled around to a different I don't even know what happened.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, so you started at 14 with a nice, shiny DSLR, and you, I think you launched your first photography business when you were 16. Is that right?
Jessica McGovern
Yes.
Angela Nicholson
What made you feel that you could do that age 16? What made you confident enough to start sort of selling your pictures or getting clients?
Jessica McGovern
I've always had business plans. When I was six, I planned a livery yard was going to run. Wow, did, didn't, didn't go. I think it was 11 when I plan and run my first little mini Horse Show.
Angela Nicholson
Brilliant.
Jessica McGovern
Something did that I've always had little like, oh, it could do this. Oh, it could do that. So I think that part never was not gonna happen. My dad is and was, back then, a business owner. So I was born. He'd been running his business from a van for four years, and then I was born in the fourth year, I think. I mean, the timeline might be a bit sketchy, but around there and then we were living in sort of rented accommodation, moving around a lot as he was trying to build this business. And my mum was was helping with that. And as I was growing up, I was watching this business develop in the background. And by the time I was about 14, it was a international, very successful business, and so I'd watched that happen, and also grew up without really seeing dad very often. He'd be out at the factory at that point, before I'd even woken up in the morning, and I was out doing horses on the yard at half five, six o'clock. And then when I came home on a night we would usually the kids. Was four of us, we would make dinner, saw our homework, do the animals, and then dad would come home sort of right after that. So it was very wasn't really there very often. And that, I think, was really important in two ways. One, it was difficult to not have that, and looking back like, Oh, I wish I had more time with dad when I was a child. But actually, if you look at the positives of that situation, and told me a great deal about hard work and determination and how much effort it takes to turn something from nothing into something that is something to be proud of. And so that's something that that I think was helpful as well, in that I've grown up in an environment where you kind of can do anything, but you're gonna have to work for it, like there's there's gonna be no sort of handouts or easy things. And I think my brain helped as well, because if I learn how a business works, then I'll be able to do it. So yeah, there's there's that. So I always wanted to be normal. I remember, at that age and going up into my early 20s, I just wanted to be normal. I didn't fit in. I didn't understand why the people did things that they did, or why people behave, the way that they behave, and I didn't understand social kind of conflicts and things like that. I just wanted to be nauseous. Was fit in. Just didn't want to be the odd one. That's a bit weird. And it was only when I was probably about 25, 26 I was like, you know, I really like my brain. I like being odd, because without that, I wouldn't really be able to do anything that I do as as well as I do, because I would be doing other things. And at the same time, it's okay to be different, because that gives you something that you can give back to other people as well in a weird way. So although I am a bit weird,
Angela Nicholson
Aren't we all?
Jessica McGovern
sometimes, and I've got no social life at all. We are all a bit weird, exactly, but I think that in the photography world, there's a lot of people are a bit odd and a bit weird, and that's great. It's the same with the animal world. So if you're in like dog sport world or equine world, everyone's a bit odd, like you're a bit screw loose anyway. So I'm here for that because I feel like we actually are all together in our oddness, and that's a really nice thing to do. So that is my social circle.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, I agree. And actually, you know, with the way technology is now, whilst it's really nice to get together with friends, you don't have to live next door, you know, you can communicate in different ways, and it's really nice to keep in touch me, I keep in touch with a lot of people through various messenger platforms. And, you know, that's really nice. You can just drop in and out, and if you need a conversation, you can, you can have it, it's there.
Jessica McGovern
Yeah, I think social media, I think, I think difficult in general, including messaging platforms and forums, even if we go kind of like backwards, I think they are kind of difficult in general, for people's mental health and their sanity just as a whole. But I think there is good that can come off it. And I think that if you can find yourself a community of people who, or even just an individual person doesn't have to be a community, but a group of people who who accept you for you, and don't have a great deal of judgment against whatever it might be that makes you you, then that's a really great thing to have, because without that, without community, without that social connection, Happiness will never happen. And I think that that's a really important factor. But, you know, it can be, there's two sides to everything, isn't there? No, I've learned that as well. I'm evolving as I grow up. I learn about life. So it was very black and white thinking as a as a child, as a teenager, things were either good or all good or all bad. And that's not a healthy way of looking at the world, and that's, unfortunately, the way that social media trains us to look at the world, because social media will polarize us into one camp if something's either all good or all bad, but life is shade the shades of gray in between. And I think that it's important to just remember that as well when we think about, you know, social media is bad, or social media is good, or, you know, photography is good, or it's bad, or it's gonna die, or it's not always. It's not, it's it's the middle bits, the blurry bits in the middle, that's where the good stuff is.
Angela Nicholson
Now, you've won or been awarded lots of accolades for your photography. Has that helped you from a sort of a personal point of view, or is it mainly just about it's nice to be recognised?
Jessica McGovern
So I started with a qualification. I needed that, and I think that's important to start with. So in 2014 I did my first qualif... photography qualification, as in a licenciate, so a photography organisation qualification, and I needed that. I needed that for my self esteem. I needed that for my self worth. I needed it for my confidence. I needed I needed it. And that's probably the only one that I've needed from a mental health standpoint. I just needed for somebody else to look at my work and say, yeah. That this is this is good enough. You can go forth and do whatever you want to do with it. And then so I got that, and that was good, and it did. It did its job. But then I think that if we look after 2020 everything after that point has been a little bit different, and there's lots of nuanced reasons why I did the way I did things. A lot of people know that I entered the first awards in 2020 to help with social proof, and to minimize how many angry men on the internet shouted at me for doing what I was doing, and that that worked really well, good. So I was getting quite a lot of really nasty comments on YouTube, which is normal. That's that's part and parcel of it doesn't mean that it's easy to deal with. It doesn't mean that it's okay. So a lot of people say that, Oh, well, if you're on, if you're on one of these platforms, as you know, an influencer or whatever, then it's, it's part of the job. And I'm like, Yeah, but it shouldn't be each it shouldn't be okay. But, yeah, no, there was, there was quite a lot. A lot of them were pointed in terms of gender and age as well. And a lot of it was some kind of, like correction comments, like, things I was saying were wrong that but they weren't like I promised. They weren't, and some of them were that, you know, that my work was was rubbish. I won't swear, yeah, my work was really bad, and this isn't what you should be doing, and you can't do it, and no one should listen to you. And just all sorts. Honestly, there are 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of them, as I'm sure you'll know, or anyone who's in the same boat will know as well. YouTube is a fairly nasty platform in terms of the comments, probably the worst, I would say. And so I was like, right? What can I do that would at least help me a little bit with this? And it was really interesting, because the second that I had that accolade of 2020, pet International, Pet Photographer of the Year when I had that at the start of every YouTube video, I would say in my intro, like, just like you do, you know, like an intro, I can't remember what it was, where you say it all the time tonight. So over 250 times I've said, Hi, I'm Jess McGovern International, at that point, award winning photographer, and if I said that, I would get none of the comments. If I didn't say it because I forgot, I would get loads of the comma right. So it was just so crazy how that one thing changed, how how people responded, and I needed it as a little bit of industry, industry proof as well, just to help with generating a little bit more of a following. So it was a bit business focused on that front that that was what that was done for after that point. It was just for fun in terms of doing it, just to see kind of how far we could get. And there was some of them that I really wanted and and I missed them a couple of times, like the society's print award. I didn't get that. I was runner up in pet Photographer of the Year one year, and then the next year, I can't remember what happened. And then won the Pet Photographer of the Year, and then this year, earlier this year, won the Pet Photographer of the Year, Overall Photographer of the Year, and then national Photographer of the Year. And that was the big that was probably the biggest one for me, because I didn't think it was ever going to be possible for a dog photo to win that, especially an outdoor one as well. So that was a big one for me. That was just sort of like personal and then my fellowships, the first one was done again as proof. So that was a business reason. And then the other two I did for me, I just wanted to push myself to do something, to shoot something different. So the style of work that was in that is completely different technique, completely different style of work than anything that I've ever done before. And so that was a bit more of a I used to keep this interesting. For me, I need to make it harder,
Angela Nicholson
Yeah.
Jessica McGovern
so that I keep engaged in in it and and so. So, yeah, they all have kind of different, different reasonings behind it. Some of them are business focused. Some of them are to stay relevant. Some of them are to stay front of mind. So a lot of it's marketing related. For me, because if I'm not working at the top of my game, why should anyone listen to me? To me, my brain. That's what I would be like. Well, why should I listen to her? Because, you know, she's not, she's not doing anything.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah.
Jessica McGovern
So for me, it was important that, that I had that, and then now I judge. So I feel like the pressure comes off me a little bit, because for the last two or three years has been a pressure to consistently win. And when you have that pressure creating competition, work that consistently wins, when it's all subjective, is next to impossible, and if I didn't win, yeah, like I was brought up with the saying second is the first loser, and that's something that's. Deeply ingrained in my brain, and that I can't shake, even though I know it's not true. So there's that element of it as well, in that runner up isn't good enough. Yeah, and if you're not runner up, there's that's really not good enough. So if I if I enter something, I get a bronze, I'm not going to post on Instagram, generally, but if I enter something and I get a goal, I might post it. Now I stopped posting because I felt like it ended up just being just this constant stream of, you know, gold or Silvers or whatever it was, or just wins and and it, it. Then at that point, I think, became quite annoying for people. So I just, I was like, I don't want to be really like, so I was just going to stop. But now and again, I enter things, because I judge some of them, some of the competitions. Now I can't enter them anyway. So that takes the pressure off me, because I'm like, Oh, what a shame I have to miss it, yeah, and just have a bit of a break from it. So the pressure to consistently shoot and create really high level work is not helpful for creativity. It's probably the worst, the worst thing that you can you can put on yourself, because you can't control all of the elements, especially animals. So obviously you can shape a shot, but you really can't control everything that's going to happen there, especially with another living being that doesn't understand English. So and it's hard, and sometimes I've shot overseas and the handlers don't speak English either, and that's that's next level of difficult. So I'm trying to explain to them how I want them to position their dog and they don't understand a single word of English is I've got someone translating. But when you're trying to get a shot and you're in the moment. It's like you're waiting for someone to listen to what you're saying, understand it enough to be able to translate it into a language and then pass that back over to somebody else. And that's, yeah, I wouldn't recommend for trying to get really high level work.
And then you've got the translator in the shot as well. So can you just move that way please?
Yeah? Just, can you both just like, yeah, help me.
Angela Nicholson
I'mtrying to photograph the dog, Not you too. But that was really interesting, what you were saying about sort of, you know, coming second is the first loser. Because one of the things I enjoyed most about the Olympic Games recently was how much people were celebrating, doing really well, getting personal bests it, yes, the medals are celebrated, but it was the personal best that were really celebrated. And I think that's actually a really hard thing to translate into photography, because if you're just be, you know, showing pictures, and people say, Yeah, we love that, that's first then that's an easy win. But if, if it doesn't come anywhere, you can't turn around and say, Well, that was my best time or my best you know, you just have to have the confidence to say that is my favorite photograph that I've taken in recent times, and I'm still really proud of it, but it's really hard to keep hold of that, isn't it?
Jessica McGovern
Yeah, and I think it's the other hard part is, especially if you've, I mean, I've, I think I'm on a 220 international recognitions now in competition, which is anything highly commended, bronze, silver, gold, whatever it is, anything that's graded as competition, standard or or, you know, wherever it's sitting. And from my research, doing those entries and results, my favorite pictures often don't do well, and that's something that I've, I've learned as well. It's like, I love this picture, but it just didn't hit and so you have to kind of remove that emotional attachment. The good thing about print competition, I think, is that usually you learn your score, the exact score, and so that's something that you can work on improving for next year, right? So like, I've got my my prints from most competitions, and on the back of the print will be written the score it got. So the first year, I was really lucky, and I got a 90 plus score print, which is like the Holy Grail for me. Anyway, 90 plus is like, yes, good. Well done. Jess, because that's amazing. The next year, the room average for our prints was scoring actually quite low in comparison to the other room. So the not, none of the prints, I don't think, in the room for the entire day scored over 90. I don't know, I can't remember, definitely not in the category. And so that was gutting, because there's had, like, a few 80 nines. And I say, Oh, I didn't even do better than last year. And then a picture that I absolutely loved was not even, not even a finalist. It just was not even a finalist. But one of my other pictures I did wasn't really that attached to, was a finalist, and went on to do well, and I was just like, oh, this year sucks, because I didn't even do better than last year with my scores. And the pitch I was really attached to didn't do very well. And I think there's you can go one of two ways. You can Well, three ways. One, you could be angry at the judges, which is just never helpful. So don't do that. Number two, you can try and learn why something did better than the other thing, which I think is useful. Or number three, you can just go away and work hard and for next time, and that, that's what I tried to do. And so real. Tried to work out, look, why is this picture the one I wanted to do? Well, why is this one so important to me? And it was actually a little bit to do with the narrative that was in the image, but also it was to do with the subject, because it was Alfie, who's everyone who knows me knows Alfie, black and white, Border Collie legend helped 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people learn how to do photography, and he's my best friend. He's been with me through everything, and it was partly because it was him he's never had, apart from the first award, he's never had, like a major success, especially not in print pump. And so I set out to try and get him something good. And this year, he got his 90, and he got his category win, which was overshadowed by the overall win, kind of sadly, because, like, Yeah, but it was that one that I was really, oh, I really like that one, because it was really important, but yeah. So coming, coming back round to it is, I think competitions can be very, very dangerous for people who are struggling with the self esteem and self confidence. I think that it's not actually probably a good thing to do. In general, I've been there, it's incredibly difficult to keep a check what your brain is telling you when these results come in. If they don't go your way, in whatever way, shape or form, it is actually quite damaging. And that's where I think qualifications and mentoring from the organizations is really useful, because that builds you, instead of it being a kind of like one and done, you don't know the answer to the question situation, which I think makes it harder, because you don't know why you didn't do well, you just didn't do well, and therefore you think you're not good. And it's not usually about that. It's usually something completely benign and potentially easy to fix, but you won't know that without having a conversation with somebody who does know. So it can be quite it can be quite dangerous, I think. But if you're willing to just give it a go, and like you said, do better than you did last year, you are able to benchmark yourself based on, you know, how many merits you get, how what the score is. So if this year you entered the print competition, for example, the societies, and you go in January and you watch the print judging, you can hear the judges comments, you can see the scores coming in. So you'd be able to see last year you ended up with an average of 75 and that was what you bought for your print if this year you enter and you would get 77 and you've heard the judges feedback, then you probably know what you could do to improve for next year. So it's a little bit that you can kind of improve as you go along. If you're entering competitions and you're feeling afterwards like you're not good enough, you're rubbish, you're you know it's, it's damaging your mental health, which is a very real thing, then I personally would recommend either getting feedback to know kind of what it is that's holding you back in that particular competition, or just take a break from competition and just shoot for fun. Just shoot your own stuff for fun and look at it that way, because that's probably going to be a healthier option than putting yourself through something that that does hurt, and then when you've peaked, there's a question of, what next? So now for me, with the societies and margins aren't retired now, because I can't do that again, just I'll just give up. So then that's what I always like, Oh, I'd like to judge, because then at least I'm giving back and help, hopefully helping other people, but also at the same time, I'm learning a bit more, and it takes a little bit of the pressure off of me for entering, which is great.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, good. Now you've touched on it a couple of times, but what point and why did you start teaching photography?
Jessica McGovern
Oh, my goodness, I started teaching photography in 2014 so it was around that point and it was very, or everything's just been very organic. It didn't make like a business plan or, you know, come at it, in a way that I'm going to do this today. It was, it's very like, even pinpointing where it began is, is very difficult. It. I remember it started on Facebook, though. So I was in a Facebook group with a load of the think they were mainly dog photographers. I feel like that's where it would have been. And we're all just like, you know, posting our stuff in this Facebook group back in the day, and somebody would ask a question, or I'd post something, and so I'll say, How did you do that? Then it would just be a case of, like, just sharing, sharing that knowledge. So it was just, you know, answering people's questions, how could they do something? And then a few people in that group, and then some people locally as well, also saw my work, and they were like, oh, you know, could you teach us how to do that? And I think I started doing in person one to ones before I taught my first workshop in in 2013 1415, but I know that in 2014 so 10 years ago, I taught a workshop at Beverly race course in Yorkshire on action photography, I think it was with dogs and portrait or action. She's sort of quite organic. So if somebody asked for something, then I'd do it. We had a very small little Facebook group of our own. And. Anybody who had come and a couple of them were struggling with something, so I recorded a screen recording of explaining how to do something in Lightroom, I think, and I uploaded it to YouTube so that I could share the link, because at that point you couldn't upload videos to Facebook. So just did that. And then there's a couple more. So I started blogging these little tips on a very old blog that no longer exists. And then, then my life went upside down in 2017 so relationship broke down, engagement broke down. It was very quick eviction. Easiest way of putting it, I put the dogs that I had at the time, which was Finn, who we lost this year, Alfie and Aus. So had a Australian Shepherd at that point, put them all in the car. Think my dad came with a hired van, I think, to move some stock. Can't remember exactly the order of events, but it was in the kills of the day. Moved as much as I could out and then moved back in with my mum and just started from scratch. I was in debt at that point, sold all of my equipment, got a job in the city, doing marketing account management at a marketing agency, which I really love because it was very high pressure, very high stress. Fantastic use of my brain. So that was that was quite fun, so that I could get a mortgage to move out of my bums. That was because I couldn't find any way to rent with to rent with these three dogs and poor credit and like, it was just not a great situation. So we thought the easiest way I could get back on my feet would be if I got a full time job, had my three months of pay slips, got a mortgage, and then we'll just rebuild my life. But then I met Dan, and that changed everything. He had his own house, and he had a good job, so he was there we, you know, we were together. I moved in over Christmas. It was very fast, very fast. Would not recommend, but would recommend, because it's worked out fine. So, yes, it was all, it was all quite quick, and soon, as I could, in the nicest possible way, I quit. I quit my job, and then then we lost the baby. I didn't have a straightforward miscarriage either. Dan had an accident in the factory that he worked in and crushed his finger in a machine. It was kind of nasty. And over the course of a couple of months, they had to keep taking bits off. I'm going to try and keep this as little likely, not graphic as possible. So he's he's having kind of multiple different amputations, taking more and more of this figure away. And whilst that was happening, so he was having an operation in one of the hospitals in Hull to have the final amputation off. And at that point, I was in with the women and children's ward having non-normal miscarriage, and this was all just before Christmas. The week before Christmas, it was a very odd process for me, because you don't know what to expect. Nobody tells you what is going to happen. Even the hospital doesn't really tell you what's going to happen. They tell you how to deal with the aftermath, but not quite kind of how it should go. So I didn't know, is this normal? Is this not normal? And after a few days, I was like, Oh, the thing, this is normal. So I went to, I went to hospital, and they were like, probably got a bit of a problem here. And so it kind of continued for for a duration of time. It was, it was extremely graphic, it was extremely painful, extremely painful. It was the grief and just loss of the whole thing was awful. Sitting at Christmas dinner with the family, with Dan's hand, all, you know, in dressings and that. And everybody knew about both of the situations, and everybody asked, Dan, how you doing? How are you doing? Like, how's it? And it was just really odd, because it was just like, hello, I'm here as well, you know. So I found that really odd, that just kind of like how it's such a taboo topic that even, like a Christmas dinner with family, it's like two people are experiencing trauma, different types of trauma, but it's like the visible physical injury was the easiest one to, sort of, you know, be talking about. And I thought that was odd. After that sort of kind of died down, I just felt really lost. I had a successful marketing agency of my own at that point, still no camera, so taking it a year out, and I went and bought a camera again and and a lens, and started doing photography. And I still run my business. And then it all got bit much because it was doing working crazy hours, 16, 18, hour days, seven days a week, no holidays, no breaks, no weekends. So that's something that I will do. If no one puts a check check on that, I will forget to eat. I will just literally plow straight through to get as much done as I can, which is great for business, but very bad for your physical health and mental health. I'm not very good at balancing. I'm a bit better now, probably. The best way of putting it, but yeah, so it got, it got a bit much so for fun, and I thought, oh well, you know, I'll keep doing a little bit more photography. So I started to shoot other people's and we're going back into it and finding my feet again, going back to the roots of where it began. And it's all going really fine. It's all so good. It gives me a little bit of a social connection, so I'm speaking to people a bit more. To go back competing with the dogs, everything's good. And then I thought, I'll do digital cleanse, because I've not done one, and it's probably all sorts from my past on the internet. So I'm gonna go and I'll google myself and delete Pro, all profiles, whatever, all bits and pieces and just clean stuff up. So I googled myself, I found those YouTube videos from 2014 that were still there, and they'd got quite a few views and loads of comments asking like, Oh, can you do another one on this? Can you do this? And and I'd not seen any of this. So this is eons old in the internet land at this point, I thought, Oh, well, this is fun. Maybe I could upload some more videos to this YouTube channel. So off I go, I think I made, God, I can't remember. I think I made three or four new short videos, I don't maybe it was three, there wasn't many, and stuck them back onto that same YouTube channel, so the same one that existed in the first place. And it just so happened that the date that all this happened was about the 19th of February 2020, which, as we all now know, is right before everything went,
Angela Nicholson
Oh yes.
Jessica McGovern
you know, with COVID. And so it was literally, I think, just look of the timing that everything else happened the way it happened. Because everybody was stuck in doors. A lot of people picked up cameras that they had left in drawers. People usually did just have their dog with them. So I think a lot of it was just coincidence that it all happened when it happened. But I, yeah, I started making the YouTube videos again for fun because I was stressed in my job. And then it became very stressful to do the videos around the job, COVID. For me, I lost all of my clients overnight. Everyone pulled out on their budgets. We were dealing with quite big budgets at that point. Everybody called the day Boris announced lockdown to say we're gonna have to put a hold on this. I had one client who wanted to just minimize a retainer, but it wasn't going to be enough to pay the mortgage or the bills, so I went to go and look for a job, shelf stacking in Morrisons. Long story short, the client said, Just give me a week, and I'll find you some clients. And he did. He did. He pulled through, and I was busier than ever. So that made it even more difficult. So in the end couple of years go by, anything that people asked for. I did so in person workshop. Show, will plan one online course. Show a plan one. The in person workshop became the first online course, because Boris did another lockdown. So that was what started that. And then can we, can we extend the feedback group and the support group from the online course and make it into a membership? Yeah, sure. We'll try and work that out. So then we made the membership. Then we want to retreats. We're doing the retreats and everything that was asked for. We say everything is asked for, therefore made, and that that's, that's how it's always been. If I say no to something this usually, because literature, I can't, I can't do it. It's, it's not doable, so I probably need to get better at saying no. But it's not, it's not hurt as yet. So now Dan works for me full time. So he's worked for me full time for a couple of years, when he was given the opportunity to jump out and take over my marketing stuff so I could focus on the photography tuition, doing photography full time, he jumped on that. And that's, yeah, it's all very organic. There was never a moment that was just like, oh, let's do this. It's just flow, flow of life and being open to opportunities.
Angela Nicholson
And so all of that now is part of That Tog Spot?
Jessica McGovern
Correct, yes.
Angela Nicholson
You sort of pulled it all together under that umbrella.
Jessica McGovern
Yes, yeah. So That Tog Spot is a kind of sprawling expanse of stuff that's so confusing to anyone who doesn't we need to consolidate, I think, and that's something that we will look at. But I mean our poor employees, when someone just when we've got a new start, and they start, and we have to try and explain where everything lives and what each thing is, and why this is different to this thing. And that doesn't mean that, and this, it's so confusing. Yeah. So we've got, like, a separate online courses website, which lives by itself, and then we have the membership and the Members' Vault, which is a separate thing, of which there's three different tiers, and it's just it. There's just a lot, yeah, so, but it is all under the umbrella of that dog spot, where it was that dog spot, and then we sort of exhausted the canine market on YouTube. That's, that's literally no one probably knows that is the answer to that. But that is so why did the rebrand? Happen. It's because the pool of of regular viewers on YouTube who search for dog related content is absolutely tiny. So for a business perspective, it is too small to make a sustainable, viable business just just from that alone. And so we rebranded to that dog spot. It was that photography spot, but shorten the central word because it just is a bit of a mouthful, just so that we could shoot children and horses as well. Under that umbrella, it's confusing, but it makes loads of sense if you know where it started. Yeah, we have a really good community, good, really international community, to be honest. I mean, I tend to get to know everybody's names and where they live really well when we do the magazine. So we ship them, we print and ship a magazine tog, talk, talk twice per year to any member who wants it. So you can opt out of having the printed copy if you want to. The last print room was in July, and we shipped 350 copies to all over the world. So that's when you kind of get a real knowledge of, kind of like, where everyone is. Because when you they're in our members area, you don't have to put where you are, so you just see everybody's names and their faces, a lot of information about them, but you don't necessarily know kind of where everyone is. And there's some really interesting places, you're like, Wow, that's so cool. The world's big!
Angela Nicholson
It is. And speaking of people from all over the world, I think it's a really good time to go to Six from SheClicks. So I've got ten questions from SheClickers. I would like you to answer six of them, please by picking numbers from one to 10. So could you give me your first number, please?
Jessica McGovern
Four. I'm gonna go four.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, several people asked this question, actually. Do you have a favorite accessory, either photographic or for working with dogs or horses, not a camera or a lens?
Jessica McGovern
Oh, my goodness. I want to make a really good answer as well. So can I do two, one for dogs, one for horses, or am I not allowed go on them?
Angela Nicholson
Okay, I think that's fair.
Jessica McGovern
All right. Okay, cool.
So for horses, I would say. And it like one of those extending cat toys with like a feather on a string at the end. Do you know the one? I mean,
Angela Nicholson
Yeah.
Jessica McGovern
like a telescopic cat toy with like a feather and a bell on the end. You can get little sets of them on Amazon. Oh, absolutely amazing for getting horses attention and to get them to like Arch, the arch the next and look really impressive. So that one cat, we call it cat toy. Cat toy is always with us in the bags for horses also works really well with with puppies, to be honest, but horses, but be careful, because if they get too close, the feather can sniff up their nostril when they sniff. So just not ideal triple check on that. Yeah, no, not ideal for dogs. The best thing. Best thing is, like a three pound 50 show leash off of Amazon, super, super thin Handle with care, because obviously the pressure distribution is so fine on that. So there's a little bit of, you know, health and safety and training needed on that. But that's the easiest way of being able to do a really quick lead removal from photographs that you photograph with the dog still on lead. So instead of having to remove a bulky collar or a harness and a chunky lead, it's just a really, really tiny little strip, and they're fairly secure as well. So that one the dogs.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, thank you. So could I have a second number please?
Jessica McGovern
Eight.
Angela Nicholson
Number eight. Do you spend a lot of time researching shooting locations, or do you tend to stick to regular haunts or go nearby your clients?
Jessica McGovern
Good question. So it depends which is always a really annoying answer to a question. And well, it depends. It does depend. At the moment, I'm going to all new locations, because I've just relocated to the other side of the flight. I'm in South West Scotland now. I've just moved from Yorkshire, right, yeah. So everywhere we go at the moment is new ish to us. So all of all of it is new, all of that I find on the internet. So I'm on Google Maps, I'm on forums, I'm on blogs, I'm on anywhere I need to be on to be finding new shooting locations. So I look for areas with good access, with ideally parking as well nearby. And then we'll go and set and go and check that location, usually well before shooting with a client. So I'd usually like to have a test shots done in the location, so I know my locations within the location before taking a client there, I pick all of the locations when I work with clients. So it's it's extremely rare for me to go to a client's selected location, because they might think it looks great, but it could photograph so badly. So I want to be going to locations where I know I can deliver the goods. So yeah, but it's if, if I'm shooting somewhere. So for example, right now, 10 minutes down the road, there's forest or beauty forest doorbee to forest is lovely. Beautiful works really well for photography. If I've got general clients that are coming in for just general sessions, then I'll probably just go to door Beatty and do a loop that I already know with shots, that we already know. It just keeps it really efficient and reduces the level of stress for everybody. And it's not that far for me, if I've got a client so I've got somebody coming up from England in October for a photo shoot. And one of them wants something really, you know, impactful for their war. They want something that's looked very like this is Scotland. We're going to travel an hour and a half to a location that I have shot at before one time, and I don't know it very well at all, but I will go in the week beforehand, and I will shoot everywhere so that I know exactly where I'm going for my shot. So I still will go and check somewhere, even if it's somewhere new. If I shoot abroad on workshops and stuff, I've got no practice time, so I am shooting blind, and just have to make sure that hopefully my first shots good, otherwise everyone will be like, Why have we paid to be here?
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, you don't want that,
Jessica McGovern
It's tense, yeah.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, could I have your third number, please?
Jessica McGovern
Five. Let's go with an odd number.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, have you ever refused to photograph an animal?
Jessica McGovern
Oh, goodness. Errm yeah, yeah, no, I have quite a few times I've refused to photograph dogs who are showing extreme signs of stress, usually, fear, very, very rarely anything else is a dog's aggressive. I can work with that. I've had aggressive dogs. Finn was quite severely aggressive, and I've worked with bite dogs in rescue, so aggression I'm okay with, personally, but fear, extreme fear, we can try and de escalate that, and I will, with the help of a hand lights. Usually, I'm in rescue, but there is a point at which we go, let's just not. It's not fair. It's This isn't right. So yes, on that, on that ground. And then once, I've refused to photograph a horse at a mini, mini, mini sessions, like a it was a yard shoot, and the horse just hadn't been groomed at all. So it had like poo and pee stains on the on its white areas. It was a colored pony. It wasn't brushed. It had mud up its legs. The tack didn't fit. And I just said, like, I don't think it's today, well, we'll maybe do it. And they came in another time, after the horse was suitably prepared for me as a business person, there's an element of they're not going to buy a picture from that shoe because the horse looks awful. Literally, could have looked really nice, and it did the following time there was an issue with the traffic. They didn't get they couldn't get there earlier. So that was just what the option was available on the day. And I just said, Look, I don't, I'm not gonna I'm. It's, yeah, I worded it really nicely, yeah, they took it quite well, but that was, I literally said, it's not gonna work. This is a no So, yeah.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, they're not gonna get what they really want, basically.
Jessica McGovern
Yeah, yeah. I'm fairly firm, and I think that helps quite a lot. I'm very kind of with my communication, very kind but firm in that this is what's going to happen. This is how we do it. This is not this is what you don't do. So it's fairly well managed from the start. I think if there wasn't the level of communication and kind of firmness, nice firmness that there was, I think you would have more potential to have issues with client behavior towards their animals and stuff. And that's just something that would also cause the end of a shoot for me.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, okay, I think that's fair enough. So could I have your fourth number, please?
Jessica McGovern
Six.
Angela Nicholson
Number six.
Which breed of dog have you found to be the most uncooperative, or is it just the owners that are the problem? That's from Caroline.
Jessica McGovern
It's usually the owners. Yeah, it's usually always the owners, and they don't mean to be just a lot of owners have a massive lack of understanding of animal behavior. Less so in horses, I think, because the bigger so you need to know what they're saying, because otherwise you're ending up a disaster. Whereas with dogs, I think it's not as there's not as big of a safety risk by not understanding what the dogs trying to tell you. But a lot of it is, is the owner is the problem in terms of breeze, I don't really think that any of any I can't pinpoint a specific breed that I think has been the most difficult, because each breed has its own stimuli. Should we say that will usually work for them to get their reinforcement or their attention. You have different breed groups, right? So you like your gun dogs and your hounds. So in your hound group, you've got your sight hounds and you usually scent hounds, but there's variations there. So you've got a load of breed. Fit under that. So sight hand, you got your Whippets, your greyhounds, your gal goes, everything else that can go into that group. Site hounds operate just by the name says on site. So if you're working with a sight hound and you're trying to get this attention with food, it's probably not actually the most effective method, actually something moving quickly, like a chase toy or, you know, a cat toy in a string, but be careful with sight, hand around that that's going to be more helpful for you. In most cases, obviously, you know it's a little bit of a stereotype, but in most cases, that's going to be more helpful. Whereas, if you're working with a gun dog, who's kind of people motivated and food motivated, then you're going to have more success, probably with food, depending on the type of gun dog that you're working with. So an understanding of the subject, I think, helps most for any type of photography. Just like if you don't know anything about kids, and you try photograph kids, you might not do a great job because of your ability to work with that type of subject. And the same is is definitely true for dogs with the different breed groups. It does make a difference. It's worth looking at.
Angela Nicholson
So if you were just starting out with dog photography, would you say it's better to start with something like a gun dog, which is a bit more responsive to humans and food?
Jessica McGovern
I think so. I think it's good to work with a real variety of dogs if you're just starting out. I think working with your own dog is the best, the best thing you can do if you have your own dog, although you will get frustrated with your own dog, and that's interesting, because actually you're just getting frustrated with your own lack of training the dog. So that's an interesting way of looking at because actually dogs don't do anything wrong. You just didn't train out to do it right. So actually you've done something wrong, if we're being picky. So, yeah. So it's a good way of, you know, developing your relationship and training the dog as well, and learning a bit more about dog behavior and training, because that is key. Most of our photo shoots, I'm literally just training the dog. I'm training a dog to do something like put his paws upon an object to get snacks. That's, that's the the behind the scenes of a dog on a log pose. It's just baby steps and reinforcing those and saying that that's the right thing. That's what we were looking for, and never any punishment on manhandling. So working with your own dog is, is good. Yes, there are certain breeds that will be easier to practice with. Something like a Labrador is going to be 100 times easier to do your practice sessions art than, than a sight hound, because, because that, you know, they are going to be a little bit more people say they're stubborn, something like a husky or something in the working breeds group. They can, they can be, you know, a little bit more independent and opinionated, would be the words that are probably used for them. But, yeah, it would be easier. But I think just working with what you've got is helpful, and then when you know how to do it and you're fairly okay go work with a rescue, there's nothing that will help you speed up your shooting more than working in a high pressure situation with 30 dogs that need a home, and none of them are trained.
Angela Nicholson
Good advice. Thank you. Okay, can I have your fifth number, please?
Jessica McGovern
Three
Angela Nicholson
What do you think of subject detection, autofocus? Has it made your job easier? That question is from Sarah.
Jessica McGovern
okay, so I'm gonna counter that with which system I'm very lucky to do the job that I do, because I get to try out everybody's cameras. So if somebody's unable to do something or is having trouble doing something as a sometimes the last resort depends on the high pressureness of the situation. I'll say, Could I have a go and see what I'm getting? Like, see the result that I'm getting. So if you know someone's saying, Oh, it's not focusing, or I can't see this, or I don't know what I'm doing wrong, or whatever, then I'll be like, Would you mind if I if I have a go? So then I get to play with everybody's cameras. Really. It's not a ploy, but it's helpful, because it means that I can say with a fairly high level of certainty that some of the camera systems are far better than others in terms of their animal eye detection, of the autofocus. So Sony, 110% amazing. Always has been good canon, I would say on par with Sony, but it works differently. So you need to know how to get the best from it. But I wouldn't say that there's a big gap between Sony and canon in terms of the effectiveness as things they like more in different ways. So Sony would be able to flagship Sony camera, the A one would be able to pick out a dog's eye in a very, very busy scene with lots of foreground, and it would still nail it 100% of the time. A Canon might be better suited to a situation where there's quite a lot of backlight, and it has to find the eye of a dark subject in front of a big piece of backlight. That actually does work better on a Canon. So it's there's little nuances between the two. The one that is still shocking is the Nick on like you guys are so bad, it's compared to the DSLRs. It's awesome. Obviously anything, any help we can get with eye detection is great. But because have the. Comparison of trying all of the others out, it's still nowhere near Yes, it has improved with the nose camera bodies. It has improved a bit, but it's still not anywhere near as accurate or versatile than the other ones, and it's a real shame. So if you're shooting Nick on then I would still say, if ever, in a tiny bit of doubt, put it back to single point, go back to DSLR mode of shooting when you focus, because you're still going to get it. It's okay. It's just we can't rely on it to find it in a full scene. It's just not, not accurate enough at this stage. But hopefully it will be in the future.
Angela Nicholson
Well, that is the great thing about AI subject detection, isn't it? Because actually, it's just a question of more data or more images being analyzed and then uploaded to the camera, and provided they've got the processing power to handle those algorithms, they can be improved. Whereas, in the past, you bought a camera and what you what you got was what you got. That was it, but now you can see a camera improve quite dramatically over time.
Jessica McGovern
Yeah, it's important to check for any firmware updates as prefer for the camera bodies, and run them as often as you can, really. So if you're listening to this and going, Oh, I've not, I've even never looked this, now is your chance go, go and check if you've got a firmware update today.
Angela Nicholson
Good idea.
So your last number then please?
Jessica McGovern
Number nine.
Angela Nicholson
Okay, do you select the dogs you photograph for campaigns, or do the clients dictate that? That question is from Rebecca.
Jessica McGovern
Okay, so that's, that's a good that's a really good question. So if it's a commercial job, then usually I'm given the dog to work with. If it's commercial wife. Is it that kind of a campaign, if it's for like, a, you know, fellowship panel or competition work? A lot. My competition work is clients, and my fellowship panel was past clients. So it a lot of it does come from client shoots themselves. If there's something that I want to do that's like a project, like Project Wolf. So I photographed a load of wolf dogs a couple of years ago. And for those though, those are ones where we did a model call, and we we picked those specifically a couple of times I've shot in locations in central London, and I've wanted to type a look from the dog. So I want to in one of them. I needed a light colored, elegant dog, and so that was what I was specifically looking for on that occasion. And then picked the dog to suit that spot. So it really is a mixture. But I would say 99% of the time their clients or past clients, because I know them. I know I know exactly what we get in there. I know the reliability. I know that they know how I work, which makes a difference. A lot of the time, someone will say the dog's really well behaved, and it's not, or they'll say the dog can do all these things, but only in their kitchen, and they miss that part out. So it's it's oftentimes easier to just go with what you know. And a lot of the clients really, are really up for being involved in other things that happen in the future as well. So it's nice to rope them back in, gonna give them more pictures?
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, that's lovely. Well, thank you so much for answering all those questions and for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.
Jessica McGovern
I'm hoping that everybody found that, I don't know if there's anything useful in there, but hopefully so. I'm such a rambler, Ange, I'm sorry I need to work on that.
Angela Nicholson
No, I think a lot of people will find what you said interesting, and I'm sure a lot of what you said will resonate with people as well.
Jessica McGovern
I hope so well, if it makes one person feel less alone, then then that's a good thing for me.
Angela Nicholson
Yeah, absolutely okay. Thank you. Bye, bye,
Jessica McGovern
Bye, bye.
Angela Nicholson
Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everybody who sent in a question. You'll find links to Jessica's social media channels and website in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube, if you search for SheClicks net, so until next time, enjoy your photography.
